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American Liberty, Civilisation, Communism, Death Toll, Defend the modern world, Kim Jung-Un, london, North Korea Best, North Korea holidays, politics, Pyongyang, Race and ethnicity in the United States Census, South Korea, Starvation, War
Here’s an interesting fact you might not be aware of: The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is the only foreign country North Koreans are allowed to study in during their period of higher education.
No other nation’s universities are open to the citizens of the Communist republic, presumably because of the well-grounded fear that those students might choose not to return. It speaks volumes that the North Korean regime has no such fears in sending its citizens to India’s chaotic neighbour, and says even more that there have been no recorded defections to Pakistan in the time this policy has been active.
Ever since I read this information, I’ve been imagining which I would personally prefer out of the two great evils of our time. That is, whether I would rather live in a starving, cruel and genocidal Communist state or in a nation ruled (albeit unofficially) along the lines of Islamic fundamentalism…
It really is a tough one. On the one hand, the DPRK has advantages over Pakistan. Unlike Pakistan, the DPRK is not chaotic but orderly and the state has absolute control over the people. True, this is ordinarily a bad thing, but given the activities that prevail in Muslim states when the government loses control, it is surely comforting by comparison. Furthermore, the DPRK does not forbid intoxication, an important means of escape from an unpleasant or insufferable reality.
On the other side, Pakistan, for all its hysterical unreason, is in reality a variety box of primitives, some of them violent, some of them merely stupid and quietly devout. If a North Korean lucked out and managed to study in whatever passes for a liberal area of the Islamic Republic, he/she might discover a forbidden liberty, like reading non-state-sponsored books, or watching unbiased international news via satellite.
Of course, the most clear and obvious advantage in going to Pakistan from Korea is the opportunity, however perilous, to cross the border into India and from there to get to the West. Indeed one could even switch planes at a Pakistani airport and get to the Korean Republic instead of the DPRK. But this takes us away from the point of the thought experiment.
Let’s say instead, that you have a choice to live for the rest of your natural life in Pakistan or in the DPRK. What would appeal to you more. Where do you think your suffering might be least, and your prospects of happiness greatest?
After thinking it through, I would probably plump for the savagery of Pakistan, purely on the grounds that there must surely be pockets of civility in a country of that size. There is also the factor of nutrition to consider. A starving life is no life at all.
I’m very much interested in your responses and reasoning.
D, LDN.
Defend the Modern World 
First of all, for a North Korean student abroad, his family back home in North Korea is effectively a hostage for his good behavior. They’d surely go to the Gulag if he defected.
Secondly, the Pakistani establishment is not a two-faced hypocrite to Communist dictatorships, like it is with the Western democracies.
(Fellow Muslim) Uighur separatists on the run in Pakistan are regularly and without fuss, apprehended and handed over to the Chinese.
No talk of Muslim solidarity here!
China massacres thousands of Muslim separatists in West Turkestan, but, you wouldn’t get a whiff of protest in Pakistan, in contrast to the thousands who descend on the streets against Israel, for a tenth of the deaths that’s happening in China.
You don’t see ‘Death to the Chinese’ or burning of Chinese flags in Pakistan.
(Pakistan may be chaotic, but in many ways the chaos is controlled by the establishment, which itself is of a Jihadi mentality.)
So, any North Korean defecting, will be promptly arrested by the Pakistani authorities and handed-over to the North Korean authorities, for a horrible fate, both for him and his family.
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“First of all, for a North Korean student abroad, his family back home in North Korea is effectively a hostage for his good behavior.” – Good point. Although for the sake of the thought experiment, let’s pretend you, the student have no family connections to speak of. Would you rather live in a Communist dictatorship or an Islamist one? Perhaps a better choice would be living in ISIS-controlled Syria or North Korea. In that case, I’d pick the latter.
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I think Communism represents a lesser evil in general. You are still allowed some moral freedom – providing you do not question the political direction of the state. The most sinister thing about Islamic rule is that you have no private life that isn’t regulated by clerics and morality police.
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Pakistan, hands down. It’s possible (though probably difficult admittedly) to become a complete recluse there if you chose. One could pay lip service to Islam when out in public and shut the compound door when you are home.
Further, you always have the potential to leave. That doesn’t exist in DPRK.
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True.
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It’s like choosing between the lesser of the two evils really.
If I was forced to choose, I would choose Pakistan.
For what I have read about Communist history, it’s a much more evil system.
Pakistan looks bad compared to liberal, secular, democratic & free-market societies, but if you compare it to a society where Communist principles like ‘labour theory of value’ ‘class struggle’ ‘centralization of decision making ” etc are fully applied: Pakistan looks like a better place.
I remember reading a quote, (I cannot remember the book, unfortunately)
“How do you know that Communism has come to your country?
Red flags everywhere? Everyone calling everyone else a ‘Comrade’? Slogans on every wall?
Yes, but the most sinister sign that Communist economic principles are being fully applied to your society is when the shops become emptied of useful goods.
In due course, you’ll start seeing lines for every essential item.
When the people start to starve and you start hearing and seeming signs of famine, then you’ll know that Communism has been successfully applied to your society.”
I’m a human being. My basic instinct is to survive. I’d rather pretend to be a good Muslim(Sunni) and survive in Pakistan than starve in a Communist Utopia.
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Me too. I just thought it was amazing that North Korean students voluntarily go back to the DPRK. Perhaps they think Pakistan is the alternative to Communism.
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You could read this article by the famous Austrian economist Ludwig Von Mises.
It’s long, but worth a read.
Click to access Economic%20Calculation%20in%20the%20Socialist%20Commonwealth_Vol_2_3.pdf
He argued in 1920 itself, that a Communist/Socialist Utopia is impossible.
It’s not only impossible, but it will be a disaster, because these economies do not have a system to assign value/price for services and goods, and because this value/price is a key indicator of supply and demand, removing this indicator from economic activity will invariably result in shortages and excesses.
Ludwig Von Mises accurately predicted the economic and social disasters that would result in applying Communist/Marxist principles to any society.
And this is what happened in EVERY Communist country.
Remember, that the Communists were the Islamists of his day: Dreamers of a perfect Marxist Utopia, if only they could get absolute power and if only the ‘unbelievers’ of Marxism could be eliminated!
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What’s truly perplexing is that someone of Marx’s intellect failed to see this.
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I have been told at school that he had no knowledge of rural societies (he was a cosmopolitan German after all) and this was the reason why Communism applied to such a rural country as Russia was a failure.
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That sounds about right. It also would explain why most of the tragedies of Communist rule happened in the name if industrialisation/urbanisation. China’s misery was just as great. China before Mao was overwhelmingly rural.
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I would choose Pakistan with no hesitation and would go over to live with the Pagan Kalash in the mountains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash_people)
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Interesting.
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or you could live in a city, after doing a quick google search. here are a few pictures (http://www.reddit.com/r/ExplorePakistan/search?q=flair%3A%27Karachi&sort=top&restrict_sr=on#ab) of karachi.
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It’s not going on my holiday list, I’m afraid.
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An intriguing article. The hunger factor is the decisive one really. Food is rather basic. And as you say, satellite television means that alternative viewpoints are available. But both societies are ghastly places. All those who blame the Jews for the ills of the world should consider that both Pakistan and North Korea are ‘Judenrein’. I’m not Jewish btw, but I wonder what would happen if both societies allowed Jews to reside therein and gave them vigorous protection? Things couldn’t be any worse and they might even get better in one way or another.
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I think Jews are too rational to consider moving to either country. Interestingly, there are Muslim countries with Jewish populations and the size of settlement correlates roughly with the amount of secularisation in those countries. Syria, Tunisia, Turkey and Egypt all have Jewish communities and they are (relatively speaking) among the more secular of the Islamic states. I agree that both Pakistan and the DPRK would benefit from Jewish settlement, but they would doubtlessly react to the idea with revulsion.
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I would say you assertion, again is nonsensical. In the middle east, outside of Israel, Iran has the largest population of jews. Tehran alone has 60 thousand, and it is a theocracy.
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Iran is far more sophisticated than Pakistan, the two don’t merit comparison.
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Islamabad/Lahore/Karachi. All day long. The lack of religious (or areligious) tolerance in Lahore may seem pretty bad, but not as bad as living in Pyongyang, unless you happen to be Kim Jong Il…
I have not been to either city, or respective countries, but am aware enough from friends who have that the Islamist regime is preferable to the cult of Kim Jong. The rules are clear and written and one would eventually work out how to work around them without risk of death. It seems from what I have learned that it would be far easier for me to get on with my own personal endeavours (while suspending my core beliefs) in Pakistan, there is also opportunity to leave, whether by acumen or porous borders.
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Here’s a thought. Instead of making up things about a country you have never visited, and never intend to visit (pakistan) you can simply look up a few things about it. A quick google search will unviel the mystery.
Pakistan is a country of 200 million people. 60 percent of them educated. English is the national language so most people can understand it, and secular law is the law of the land for the most part. Muslims can use an islamic court for personal disputes, but secular federal courts can and do strike them down as they are superior.
Further more, there are more christians in pakistan then the population of many states in your country (i’m guessing the USA given your ignorant attitude).
Further more, pakistan is more or less, an open country, with an uncontrollable and liberal media, an independent judiciary, and an extremely powerful miliatary. ALL OF this is under the supervision of an elected government. Yes, it is one of the largest democracies in the world. It is also one of the largest economies of the world, and the produer of an abnormally large percentage of doctors/engineers/entreprenuers, many of who end up in your country.
It is also a country with dozens of languages, a 5000 year old past, dozens of ethnicites, and multiple religious denominations, and religions that you may never have heard of.
It has bad PR, but even in that, it’s the top destination for mountain climbing community from all over the world as 7 of the top 15 peaks in the world are in the north east of the country.
plus, i am writing to you while eating super early morning breakfast from an outdoor cafe, on my god damned wifi, in my middle class neiborhood.
also, i’m not muslim. so there’s that.
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Pakistan is a nightmare. You’re in denial if you believe otherwise.
I’m not American, but it takes a special kind of arrogance for a Pakistani to accuse Americans of ‘ignorance’. America is one of the most sophisticated countries in the world, with more Nobel Prize winners than any other nation. As an Englishman, I am more than familiar with Pakistani Muslim culture, as are 1400 defenceless girls in the Rotherham area alone….
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You’ve portrayed a rather Violent and different Image of Pakistan my Friend. All you Told in this article was that How it is full of violence and terror and how its considered to be the Lesser evil when Compared to North Korea. Theres bad Fish in every sea and what the so called unbiased Media tells us about Pakistan is the negative side that they Capture to get their ratings strong. Its a Country which is going through alot. There had been cases of terrorism and deteriorating law and order conditions but im Happy to say that our Government took good care of it at the right time. It would be totally wrong to compare us to North Korea. We have a Running And a Completely Democratic government in our Pakistan and im pleased to say that the conditions now are way better than what you just presented to the general public. Its really sad to see that without adequate knowledge you put up such a negative view of Pakistan
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There are bad fish in every sea, but they tend to be concentrated in certain areas. Pakistan unfortunately, is one such area. I’m not saying Pakistan is all bad – no country is all bad – but it is one of the most troubling countries in the world.
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